<Lineka> hi cak

<Mar> so you fix it in note pad and reload it up??

<Janet> You just upload the same file name again and it over writes the old version.

<Janet> yep

<Janet> hiya, Charlotte.

<cak> Hiya--we talkin' 'bout uploading your html files?

<Lineka> just like "save as"?

<Lineka> yes, Cheri

<Mar> oh boy, guess i have to buy that trial ftp thing as it expires soon

<Janet> Web pages are never finished, I don't think. I think they're always in a state of evolution.

<Lineka> I mean cak

<Janet> Yep, Mar. You'll be hooked on doing this by then.

<Janet> It's a real kick seeing your stuff on the web, isn't it?

<Lineka> I was just afraid I wouldn't be able to get to it as easily

<Mar> my family was sure impressed when i showed them this weekend what i have been doing

<Lineka> I love you BG color, Mar

<Janet> I bet! Mine was amazed the first web page I uploaded.

<cak> Did you all get your stuff up?!? I wanna see some urls!

<Lineka> not yet, cak

<Janet> Check this one out. http://pages.cthome.net/jaymar/

<Mar> better than me janet, i was just looking for that

<cak> gotcha--goin' there now

<Janet> LOL. I'd looked it up to show Cheri and Lineka earlier.

<Cheri> Where did you get those pictures, they are gorgeous

<Mar> where's rubberrabbit?

<Janet> (I think Mar should teach the next course in graphics)

<Mar> i am in a psp group and we do lots of tutorials each month, learn lots...

<Janet> Yeah, where's RubberRabbit and MaggieB and Kriz

<Janet> Print Shop Pro?

<Mar> paint shop pro

<Janet> oh yeah. der.

<Mar> now that is a total other addiction

<Lineka> I found one online to help alter graphics

<Lineka> hi Kriztina

<Mar> which one Lineka

<Janet> I am thinking, the next course in graphics, if everybody knows how to do things in their own software, it should work.

<Mar> hi Kriztina

<Kriztina> hi all cant stay eatin dinner bbiab

<Janet> Well, there's Kriz!

<Lineka> hold on I forgot, lol

<Lineka> GifWorks

<cak> looks *great* Mar!

<Mar> do not know that one.

<Janet> Like if we were talking how to bevel something and I said "next mask your image" it would work if everybody knew how to mask in their own software.

<Mar> thanks cak

<Lineka> tripod. Lycos Network

<Mar> they would have to know what that meant in their program, too many to know all the programs

<Lineka> http://tripod.gifworks.com/

<Cheri> darn isp!

<Lineka> lol

<Mar> thanks lineka, will look at that after class

<Cheri> ty

<Lineka> yw

<Janet> Yeah, that's the only way it would work. But if I figured it out, what we'd learn each time, I could set the home work as "find out how to do these things in your software> mask, change color levels, change contrast"

<Lineka> Oh boy

<cak> Sounds like a good approach Janet

<Mar> sounds good, i only know psp but could help anyone that uses that if they did not know

<Lineka> I don't have that software

<cak> (and there are a lot of people who are interested)

<Janet> (it's gonna be one of those nights)

<Lineka> lol

<Janet> y'all remind me not to click on a url in this until I clean out my url stash

<cak> (and I thought I was the only one who was having isp trouble!)

<Cheri> mine too

<cak> Is that why you got dumped?

<Janet> I'm crashing my own chat software, i think I've got too many url's in the url catcher dealie.

<Janet> yeah.

<Janet> or something.

<Janet> anyway, tonight we're going to talk about special characters for sure. and catch up with questions.

<cak> is this something you have to worry about in mIRC or only in pirch?

<cak> (oops, sorry)

<Mar> i use web page cuz i still can;t figure out anything else

<Janet> I don't know, it just started doing it. I think it's something related to windows ME

<cak> \]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]

<cak> Sorry, cat on the keyboard

<Janet> we'll have to talk you through getting irc software one of these days, Mar

<Lineka> lol

<Mar> i did download mirc but could not figure out the rest of it

<Mar> challenged chatter

<Lineka> lol

<cak> Once you get it set up, you'll really like it Mar

<Janet> Special characters sound a lot more exciting than it is. It's just like if you wanted to put a character like a greater than or less than in your text, how to do that.

<Janet> Or a character not on your keyboard, like a Euro

<Janet> I made a chart of them, there's no way anybody remembers all these, you remember the few you use all the time, the rest you look up.

<Janet> on the class notes page. http://www.cyberstampers.com/html6.html

<cak> thanks

<Cheri> thanks

<Mar> i am printing this

<Janet> some I remember, like a non-breaking space (like if you wanted to make sure something didn't split between two particular words, or just wanted an extra space somehwere)...

<Janet> that's   (it's easy to remember NonBreakingSPace

<Janet> or the euro symbol is €

<Lineka> ty, Janet

<Janet> mostly they make sense, but I still have to look up most of them

<Janet> I now know by heart the greater-than and less-than ones, though, from doing the class notes pages.

<Lineka> do you really use these that often?

<cak> Janet, these are common to all character sets?

<Janet> They should be, if done with the names. If done with the ascii number codes, not necessarily.

<Janet> I mean, you may have that chart with the wrong symbols on it, because I know your mac and my pc don't have the same fonts with the same high ascii codes

<Janet> does that make sense though?

<cak> (yeah, some of them aren't showing correctly on my Mac, but you get used to it)

<Janet> (yeah because I got lazy and rushed late this afternoon and stopped typing in the name codes and started doing the number codes that I knew)

<Janet> I mean, I was looking more than half of those up to make the chart.<g>

<Lineka> that's a lot to do

<Janet> I got tired at the bottom and started using numbers instead of names

<Janet> It's really easy to use them, though.

<Janet> they all start out with an ampersand & and end with a semi-colon ;

<Janet> and if you're using the ascii number code, you put the # infront of the numbers

<Lineka> notepad, right?

<Janet> Yep

<Mar> do you have to put spaces or just rung the &words;with your text?

<Janet> no spaces, unless you wanted a space in your text. like if you wanted fric&frac run together like that?

<Janet> fric&frac

<Mar> ty

<Janet> no spaces

<Janet> (fric & frac? where do I think these things up?)

<Lineka> lol

<Mar> i would pick M&M's

<cak> (hey, they work!)

<Janet> yes! M&Ms!

<Janet> M&M‘s

<Janet> (I think 145 is right, I'd have to look it up to make sure)

<Cheri> now I understand why when I went to open something it looked like gibberish, allthe codes

<Janet> Yep, like looking at a class log? it's all < and > things

<Lineka> I guess I haven't had to use any of the symbols yet

<Janet> Browsers are really forgiving, though. Seems like I used to do a lot of " and I know now I don't.

<Lineka> I use IE, how different is Netscape?

<Janet> I DO a lot still of   though.

<Janet> if you make a table and want an empty cell?

<Mar> i use IE also

<Janet> if you don't put SOMETHING in the cell, sometimes the borders disappear in some browsers.

<Lineka> oh

<Janet> so you put a   between the <td> and </td> and then the borders don't go disappeared on ya

<Lineka> ok

<Kriztina> ok i'm back, bill MADE me go see the moonrise with him , sheesh romantic husbands

<Janet> if you've ever noticed where someone has a table and there's cells that's gone missing, that's what's happening

<Lineka> lol

<Janet> awwwwwwwww

<cak> (those *guys*!)

<Mar> how nice...

<Lineka> not my DH

<Lineka> romantic wise

<Lineka> lol

<Janet> mine's flirting with death today. our only child is graduating college sunday, tonight he asks "do I have to wear a suit?"

<Janet> (which translates into "do I have to buy a suit?")

<Lineka> lol

<Mar> that would be my dh also

<Lineka> lol

<Cheri> lol

<Janet> He's a pharmacist, doesn't have to have suits to work in, so he doesn't.

<Mar> my son is having first communion on sunday and i know the tie for my dh will be an issue

<Janet> LOL Mar. Yep. Guaranteed.

<Cheri> make it clip on, less restricting

<Lineka> lol

<Cheri> or get him a texan string tie

<Cheri> or a clip on bow tie

<Lineka> there you go

<Janet> I started hearing about how much a suit would cost, I asked just how much he already had invested in the deal, so at least now he's not here (he's out buying a suit)

<cak> Could you talk a bit about character sets? I have the merest inkling about them.

<Mar> getting him in the church will be enuf of a challenge

<Mar> tell him he can use the suit for the wedding... that will keep him quite

<Janet> You mean like which sets are which?

<cak> I guess (I told ya I only know alittle)

<Janet> (I told him if he came home with anything polyester, or any polyester content, he was dead)

<cak> Latin 1 is the default?

<Cheri> or a funeral

<cak> (lol)

<Janet> Latin 1 is the default.

<Mar> what is a character set?

<Janet> I don't know a whole bunch.

<cak> I'm trying figure out if you can dictate the character set you want to use or if it's like fonts where the client/receiver has to have the character set on his/her computer. (eg, typing Greek symbols)

<Lineka> rofl

<Janet> Other than different fonts have different character sets.

<Janet> Charlotte now THAT I don't know. You specify character set when you begin, if it's different than latin 1.

<Cheri> good question

<Janet> (I don't know this stuff because I don't do it.)

<Janet> The extended high ascii set is a whole nothing deal too.

<Cheri> Iknow that a guy i work with use a spanish character set, on his and when he sends it to me, it changes to englis

<cak> neither do I, but I know I'm gonna get asked to do it--changing the font face works doesn't work on a Mac in IE.

<Janet> OH yeah. That's gonna be hairy, Charlotte.

<cak> We use Netscape on all our computers at school, but...

<Janet> but... is right.

<Lineka> lol

<Janet> Not all browsers support all the name entities either.

<Janet> I did do the chart more or less from "most commonly supported" to "iffy"

<cak> do the browser sites tell you what they currently support?

<Janet> Let me find a reference chart, this is the one I use a lot.

<Janet> (looking)

<Lineka> well, I'm not doing this for a living, that's for sure.

<Janet> http://www.w3schools.com/html/html_entitiesref.asp

<cak> I know a lot of books have charts, but they get outdated quite quickly

<cak> thanks!

<Janet> LOL. I AM doing this for a living but these character codes are a whole nother ball of wax.

<Janet> I have learned from experience not to use the fraction codes in a recipe

<Janet> not all browsers support them then people write asking HOW MUCH SUGAR???

<Lineka> What's considered the right amount of time putting a decent website together?

<Janet> (Yeah, I could have said the ISO-8mumble set)

<Lineka> hi TheQueen

<Janet> A lifetime, Lineka.

<Janet> Hiya, Chris.

<TheQueen> hi lineka, and Janet

<cak> That's a problem with the chat software too--I gotta guess on 1/4 and 1/2 a lot

<Janet> LOL. It depends. I can HTML-up one in an hour or so. Thinking of decent content? well, that's different.

<Lineka> lol

<Janet> Yeah, if I type ¹ in here, how many of us can get one-fourth out of that?

<Mar> i see 1/4

<Cheri> me

<cak> (well, now I know how to get pi on the Mac)

<Janet> I see 1/4

<Janet> LOL

<Janet> Charlotte probably doesn't see 1/4

<Cheri> is see 1/4, not the same

<cak> (good guess!)

<Cheri> oh, I get it

<Lineka> 1/4, yes I see it

<Mar> so the page looks good to you but not to others

<Janet> There's some font code that puts =20 for line breaks. I get that a lot in email.

Lineka is getting a headache

<cak> Oh! I always wondered what that was coding

<Janet> Exactly, Mar. The whole "design consideration" hour is going to be picky detail stuff, like how different browsers or computers see things differently.

<Mar> very tricky

TheQueen passes the Motrin

Lineka takes a couple

<Janet> When you start thinking about how your pages are seen on different computers with different software, it IS headache-inducing!!!

<cak> do you test on both platforms (Mac and IBM) and the two major broswers only?

<Janet> I test now on Netscape, IE5 and Opera, but only on PC. I depend on you and Cheryl to tell me how it looks on Macs

<Janet> I have software for graphics that will show me a graphic in the Mac standard palette of colors.

<cak> cool--I do serve a purpose!

<Janet> (a whole 'nother headache)

<Lineka> what is the ratio of Macs to PC? just curious

<Janet> It's down to less than 20 percent.

<Lineka> hmmm

<Janet> For a while I had a java script on the mall pages testing what screen resolution and what browser people were using.

<cak> You found most people use IE, didn't you?

<Janet> I found that, at least out of the people who hit the main mall pages, most of them have their screens set to 800x600 or better. And like 65 percent were using IE

<Janet> yep

<Lineka> I did have Netscape, and liked it

<Janet> Only two percent of the people hitting the mall pages at the time I was pulling in that info had their screens set to 640x480

<Lineka> didn't have any trouble

<cak> (I was one of them)

<Janet> I think I like Netscape best. (but Netscape 6 caused me trouble so I'm back to 4.7)

<Janet> (Momcat was the other one)

<cak> lol

<Janet> It was important to me to have the mall pages where they fit completely width-wise on people's screens.

<Janet> but 600 pixels across is soooo small

<Janet> when I got that 98 percent had at least 800 pixels across, I widened up the mall pages a bit.

<Janet> Y'all were supposed to have questions to fill this hour.<g> Any other questions?

<Lineka> are we to control our webpages?

<cak> OK, I've forgotten--can you use the width attribute without a table tag?

<Janet> Only in some browsers, Charlotte. Not dependably. The only dependable way is to put the whole web page inside a one row one column table and specify that one cell width="howevermanypixels"

<Janet> You don't have to, Lineka. I have control issues.<g>

<Janet> I want people to see what I want them to see, the way I want them to see it.

<Lineka> pixel wise, lol

<cak> (she's a designer and wants to make sure her work is shown at its best!)

<Lineka> ok

<Lineka> I have a jpg that needs to made smaller

<Janet> Of course this is pretty much against the ADA standards, where we're encouraged to NOT use coding to control design issues, but rather use the <h1> <h2> etc. as the content dictates.

<Janet> Lineka, what graphics program do you use?

<cak> Yeah, that's a whole course by itself

<Lineka> I have photo on PhotoWorks and it's software

<Janet> (short break, I dropped a jenmist caramel, gotta find it)

<Janet> whew, it's back in my mouf now

<Lineka> lol

<Janet> Can you resize in photoworks?

<Lineka> is that where I'm to do it?

<Janet> (it would be a crime to step on a jenmist caramel)

<Lineka> ok

<Lineka> I thought there was a command

<Janet> well, you can control how it's shown on your web page...

<TheQueen> Yes, jen's in class, and if you step on it, i'll tell

<Janet> like if it's 600x300 and you say width="100" height="200" then that works

<Janet> except people are spending the time and downloading the big version, but seeing it smaller.

<Mar> will it look distorted that way?

<cak> but it still loads as slow as the original?

<Lineka> OK, that's what it is then

<Janet> so it's best to cut your load time and make your graphics the size they're going to be seen

<Lineka> ty

<Janet> work more on those web pages for next week!!

<Lineka> would you repeat word wrap again

<Cheri> thanks janet

<Janet> AND make a couple more pages, even if they're just repeats of your original.

<Janet> so next week we can make some navigation tools for our pages.

<cak> link 'em?

<Janet> yep, link 'em

<Mar> great

<Lineka> ok

<Janet> see you all in class!

<Lineka> ty Janet

<Mar> thanks janet

<Lineka> good night all

<cak> Thank you yet again Janet!

<Cheri> will do

<Lineka> I'm closing down

<Janet> and i'll repeat word wrap next week too

<Janet> See ya!

<Lineka> by

Log file closed at 5/8/01 9:00:53 PM