<VALUE> Okay. the main class page is here at http://janet.margul.com/color/
<VALUE> and the recap is at http://janet.margul.com/color/recap.html
<VALUE> AND I CHANGED MY NAME TO VALUE BECAUSE VALUE IS THE MOST POWERFUL OF THE THREE ASPECTS.
<VALUE> BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
###VALUE is now known as JANET
<JANET> UHHH... THE TRICK IS ME REMEMBERING WHERE THE PAGES ARE.<G>
<JANET> ANYWAY, ANYONE BESIDES ME WANT TO CLUE JOAN AND MOMCAT IN ON WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT WITH THE THREE ASPECTS?
* JANET FROWNS AT THE SLUGS IN CLASS
<JANET> WAKE UP, LIL SLUGGIES.
<JANET> PING JANET
<Jambalaya> tee hee
<Wanda> we're all reading your pages :-)
<JANET> PATHETIC<G>
<JANET> LOL!
<Joan> I'm reading
<MomCat> Mee toooo
<JANET> YEAH, BUT YOU TWO HAD A PASS ON THAT ONE, THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO BE ABLE TO TELL YOU ABOUT VALUE AND SATURATION AND HUE.
<JANET> VALUE IS THE RELATIVE LIGHT OR DARKNESS. AND VALUE IS RELATIVE.
<joy> I'm not a slug, I'm escargo
<JANET> (THAT IS THE KEY PHRASE. VALUE IS RELATIVE)
<JANET> LOL!
<MomCat> rofl
<JANET> PASS THE GARLIC!
<MomCat> value is how much light it reflects
<Jambalaya> oh lord joy, now janet will be craving you all night
<JANET> SATURATION IS HOW PURE (OR GRAY) A COLOR IS
<MomCat> saturatio
<JANET> LOL I ALREADY AM!!
<JANET> SNAILS. YUMMMMM
<joy> now I'm scared
<Joan> ewwwwwwwwwwwwwww
<Jambalaya> you should be
<JANET> OH AND ONE THING WE'LL LEARN TONIGHT IS THAT SATURATION ALSO IS RELATIVE
<Jambalaya> janets will eat anything<g>
<JANET> (EXCEPT GREEN PEPPER)
<JANET> BUT I LUV SNAILS.
<MomCat> The one pepper Janet and I agree on!
<JANET> IT'S THE GARLIC BUTTER.
<JANET> AND GUESS WHAT? HUE IS ALSO RELATIVE!
<cak> boy, no wonder I have so much trouble with this stuff
<JANET> NOW WE CAN SAY THAT THESE THREE THINGS ARE EXACT, BUT OUR EYES AND BRAINS CHANGE WHAT "IS" TO WHAT "SHOULD BE" AND BUMP UP THE CONTRAST ON EVERYTHING SO WE CAN READ IT EASIER.
<JANET> ERGO... EVERYTHING IS RELATIVE.
<cak> it sure is a complex balancing act to design well
<JANET> BECAUSE WE DON'T WANT TO DEAL WITH NUMBERS AND WHAT IS. OUR COMPUTERS CAN DO THAT FOR US. WE WANT TO KNOW AND CONTROL WHAT OUR VIEWERS' BRAINS ARE DOING
<JANET> SO SEE THE RECAP?
<JANET> TAKE AWAY ONE ASPECT AND THE IMAGE FALLS FLAT
<JANET> THE ONLY ASPECT THAT CAN STAND ALONE IS VALUE (PICTURE THAT AS A BLACK AND WHITE PHOTO)
<JANET> IT ALSO ILLUSTRATES WHAT EACH IS
<JANET> SO ARE WE RECAPPED ENOUGH?
<Joan> ,3I am seeing it, but not sure if I am getting it
<JANET> ARE Y'ALL SOLID ENOUGH TO GO ON?
<Jambalaya> joan set color back to black or no color please
<cak> Joan? did you say something or did you change your color?
<JANET> IT WILL MAKE MORE SENSE AS WE TALK ABOUT IT. AND ALSO AFTER CLASS WHEN YOU CAN PLUNDER THROUGH THE VALUE PAGES.
<Joan> i did
<JANET> LET'S CONCENTRATE ON SATURATION TONIGHT FIRST.
<JANET> YOU CAN SEE ON THE MAIN PAGE WHAT SATURATION IS.
<JANET> SORRY, I HAD TO FIND MY NEXT PAGE.
<JANET> DUH
<cak> lol (serves ya right)
<Wanda> so saturation is how blue the blue is.... or whatever color.... yes?
<JANET> AND I PUT IT OUT OF ORDER SO FORGET WHAT I SAID, WE'LL TALK ABOUT HUE FIRST, THEN SATURATION
<JANET> YES!!
<Wanda> ok
<JANET> http://janet.margul.com/color/hue/hue.html
<JANET> THE TOP ILLUSTRATION IS JUST THE COLOR WHEEL, BUT IN A ROUND SHAPE
<JANET> AND IT TRULY HAS NO VALUE BY ITSELF
<JANET> BUT WHEN I ADDED A CONTRASTING BACKGROUND, YOU CAN SEE YOUR BRAIN SEES VALUES IN THESE HUES
<JANET> UH DOES THAT MAKE SENSE?
<JANET> UTOH.
<cak> yeah! (and hail and damnation--I just realized that since it's relative, you can't just talk about it, you have to talk about it compared to something else)
<JANET> ANYWAY, WHILE WAITING FOR JOAN TO GET BACK... WE'LL LOOK AT SATURATION.
<JANET> YES!!
<JANET> AND SATURATION ALSO IS RELATIVE.
<JANET> REMEMBER OUR GRAY BAR FROM LAST WEEK?
<JANET> THIS WEEK I HAVE A COLOR BAR.
<JANET> BUT TO CHANGE THE RELATIVE SATURATION OF IT, I HAD TO CHANGE THE SATURATION OF THE BACKGROUND
<JANET> IT'S THE SAME COLOR BAR.
<JANET> BUT SEE THE RELATIVITY?
<verb-brb> yup
<JANET> SAME STORY.
<JANET> VERBY!
<verby> janet!
<JANET> VERBO! LIKE RAINBO!
<JANET> A VERITABLE PRISM OF DELIGHT
<MomCat> Yes
<cak> yeah! I'm still getting used to having to have two things to talk about
<JANET> NOW YOU CAN SEE THE RELATIVE VALUE OF EACH HUE AT PEAK SATURATION WHEN YOU SQUINT AT THEM A BIT.
<JANET> YEAH, THIS ONLY REALLY MAKES SENSE AS IT RELATES TO SOMETHING ELSE.
<JANET> TO ILLUSTRATE, I BROKE OUT SOME OF OUR FAVORITE COLORS, SET THEM ON A VALUE:SATURATION TABLE
<JANET> AND YOU CAN SEE HOW THAT PEAK SATURATION POINT MOVES AROUND
<JANET> WITH THE BLUE IT'S RIGHT UP NEXT TO THE BLACK
<JANET> AND THE YELLOW IS WAY DOWN TOWARDS THE WHITE
<JANET> CAN YOU SEE WHAT i'M TALKING ABOUT WHEN I TALK ABOUT THE RELATIVE VALUE OF A HUE?
<cak> yeah! finally
<MomCat> yes
<JANET> YAY!!!
<JANET> I FIND THIS FASCINATING ALL BY ITSELF, BUT A PRACTICAL APPLICATION WOULD BE SAY, IN PUTTING TEXT ON A BACKGROUND...
<JANET> VERB MENTIONED THIS LAST WEEK, THAT SOME COLORS JUST FADE INTO EACH OTHER.
<JANET> HARD TO READ.
<JANET> LOOK AT THIS: http://janet.margul.com/color/hue/
<JANET> THIS IS A PRACTICAL APPLICATION OF HOW CHANGING YOUR HUE VALUES SO YOUR TEXT AND BACKGROUND DON'T HAVE THE SAME IS A GOOD THING TO DO
<JANET> DOES THAT MAKE SENSE?
<MomCat> yes
<JANET> ANOTHER THING TO LOOK AT IS THE HEADING OF THE MAIN PAGE
<JANET> LOOK AT THIS: http://janet.margul.com/color/
<cak> yes, yo have to make sure that your text and background have different values to increase legibility
<JANET> WHEN I MADE THAT THE FIRST TIME, WITH A WHITE BACKGROUND, MY YELLOW AREAS JUST FADED OUT AND I WANTED THE WHOLE HEADING TO POP
<JANET> HAD TO MAKE IT POP IWTH THAT RELATIVE BACKGROUND!
<JANET> AND THE BLUES AND PURPLES DON'T OVERPOWER EVERYTHING ELSE, BECAUSE THEY ARE CLOSER IN RELATIVE VALUE TO THE DARK GRAY BACKGROUND
<JANET> A PRACTICAL APPLICATION OF THE RELATIVE VALUE OF HUE
<JANET> I FEEL LIKE I'VE DUMPED THIS ALL AT YOU
<JANET> (CUZ I HAVE<G>)
<cak> what else can you do?
<MomCat> A natural rainbow has the same colors but lighter
<JANET> LET'S ALL (THAT MEANS YOU) TALK ABOUT IT TO MAKE IT MORE SOLID FOR US
<MomCat> is their value less than yours?
<JANET> IT ONLY LOOKS LIGHTER BECAUSE OF THE RELATIVE VALUE BETWEEN IT AND A RAINY SKY
<cak> you really have to have a fair amount of information to have something to make sense of
<MomCat> they are the same hues, right?
<JANET> THEY ARE. IT IS THE BACKGROUND THAT IS DIFFERENT
<MomCat> and the same saturation?
<JANET> YES
<JANET> THE SAME SATURATION
<JANET> FABU!!
<faberinth> sneeking in late
<JANET> UH WHICH PAGE DO I SHOW FAB FIRST?
<JANET> PROBABLY THE HUE HUE ONE
<JANET> http://janet.margul.com/ratz
<JANET> lost her before i could make a decision
<JANET> lol
<faberinth> but back
<JANET> http://janet.margul.com/hue/hue.html
<JANET> THERE.
<JANET> I THINK THAT'S THE RIGHT ONE.
<faberinth> says page cannot be found!
<cak> lol 404 on the ratz page Janet (yeah, yeah, I know it's not a real page)
<JANET> SNEAK UP AND CHANGE THE WWW TO JANET?
<Stampverb> ack, got bumped
<JANET> NOPE
<JANET> LET ME FIND THAT SUCKER
<JANET> AH HA!
<Stampverb> just as you were saying "verb mentioned last week...."
<JANET> http://janet.margul.com/color/hue/hue.html
<JANET> I FORGOT THE COLOR PART OF IT
<fag> Thanks
<JANET> VERB. THAT WAS SHOWING THE SATURATION PAGE
<JANET> http://janet.margul.com/color/hue/
<Stampverb> ok ty
<JANET> BECAUSE YOU'D TALKED ABOUT WEB PAGES THAT ARE HARD TO READ
<Stampverb> a huge pet peeve
<JANET> AND THEY ARE HARD TO READ BECAUSE THE RELATIVE VALUE OF THE COLORS OF THE TEXT AND BACKGROUND ARE TOO CLOSE TO THE SAME
<Stampverb> exactly
<Wanda> sorry, Janet, I have to go.... Thank you!!! I think I'm figuring this out :-)
<cak> now we know that this will be handy when designing with text and for troubleshooting when something just isn't quite right, but what else can you use it for when you're originally designing? I'm always afraid of putting too much of a stranglehold on the design
<JANET> COOL, WANDA. TAKE CARE!
<cak> Night Wanda
<JANET> YOU CAN CONTROL YOUR VIEWER BY YOUR USE OF RELATIVE HUE AND VALUE
<JANET> TOO LARGE A TOO SATURATED IMAGE IS OVERWHELMING, YOUR DETAILS ARE GONNA GET LOST
<JANET> ALSO PICKING LAYERING PAPERS...
<JANET> HMMM... CHOOSE CLOSE TO THE SAME RELATIVE VALUE COLORS? OR DIFFERENT??
<JANET> THAT'S A DESIGN DECISION.
<cak> so if you want to have the border be a design element (to control eye movement?) you have more contrast?
<JANET> GENERALLY YOU'LL DO IT "BY EYE" BUT WHEN "THAT LOOKS RIGHT" FAILS YOU, NOW YOU'VE GOT SOME THEORY TO PULL OUT AND PONDER
<JANET> GENERALLY, I'D THINK SO.
<JANET> OR DO IT BOTH WAYS...
<JANET> IT'S ALWAYS WHAT'S DIFFERENT THAT JUMPS AT YA
<cak> is this almost always to control eye movement? (design in general)
<JANET> THE RELATIVE DIFFERENCE, OF COURSE<G>
<cak> lol
<cak> since everything is relative (a tad reductionist)
<JANET> AND TO HELP COMMUNICATE THE THOUGHTS YOU'RE AIMING FOR
<JANET> REMEMBER THE VALUE IS PAGE?
<cak> yeah (I love that page)
<JANET> WE COULD DO A "SATURATION IS" AND "HUE IS" PAGE THE SAME WAY
<fab> Yeah, put it in favorites
<JANET> AND USE THOSE RELATIONSHIPS TO COMMUNICATE
<cak> I see, so if you're "talking" about quiet things you'd use less contrast
<JANET> OR HEY, HOW ABOUT A SPOTLIGHT CARD... THE WHOLE CARD (EXCEPT THE SPOTLIGHT) IN DE-SATURATED COLORS AND THE SPOTLIGHT IN REALLY SATURATED COLORS?
<cak> oh yeah
<JANET> LESS CONTRAST. LESS SATURATION. HMMM MAYBE EVEN LESS HUE. RELATIVELY OF COURSE<G>
<cak> exactly what a spotlight!
<JANET> VICKI? THIS MAKING SENSE TO YOU?
<JANET> (HEH HEH, PICKING ON HER NOW)
<JANET> ANYWAY, THERE'S A LOT OF RELATIONSHIPS TO PONDER AS YOU PICK COLORS FOR YOUR DESIGNS.
<cak> careful, she has that crawfish at the ready
<JANET> AND I JUST DUMPED A WHOLE BUNCH MORE OF 'EM ON YA TONIGHT
<JANET> LOL!
<MomCat> It will help me explain in color wheel class something that is instinctive for me
<Stampverb> worse, she has slimy limp cooked okra at the ready
<JANET> NO HOMEWORK FOR NEXT WEEK, WE'VE GOT MYSTERY STAMP CLASS.
<JANET> BUT I LUV THAT OKRA!
<JANET> AND THAT CRAWFISH, TOO
<cak> cool, but there is more, right? (I hope, I hope, I hope)
<MomCat> lol
<JANET> AND I'M STARTING TO GET HUNGRY<G>
<JANET> OH YEAH.
<JANET> THERE'S MORE
<JANET> HEH HEH
<JANET> STARTING IN JULY WE START REALLY TALKING ABOUT RELATIONSHIPS!
<cak> Yay!
<JANET> RELATIVE SIZE. RELATIVE COLOR. RELATIVE VALUE.
<fab> I have really enjoyed this whole thing
<JANET> AND HOW ALL OF THIS TIES TOGETHER TO MAKE A COMPOSITION
<Stampverb> i like your samples tonight
<JANET> THANKS! I HAVE LEARNED SO MUCH TRYING TO COMMUNICATE WHAT IS SO FUZZY IN MY OWN HEAD TO Y'ALL
<fab> Sorry but I'll be traveling most of July
<JANET> YOU CAN ALWAYS CATCH UP VIA LOGS
<cak> (buy a laptop!)
<Stampverb> is tyhere one more class in this series?
<MomCat> lol, cak
<fab> I'll look for the logs when I get back
<JANET> I THINK PROBABLY THE FIRST WEEK OF JULY FOR RELATIONSHIPS
<JANET> THEN WE'LL PIN POINT AREAS WE'D LIKE TO SPEND MORE TIME AND DISCUSSION ON
<Stampverb> k
<JANET> AND ASK JAMS TO SCHEDULE US DISCUSSION CLASSES
<cak> cool
<Stampverb> good idea
<cak> I need it
<JANET> SHE'S BEEN REALLY NICE ABOUT SCHEDULING ME HOWEVER MUCH I WANT :)
<fab> We need all the help we can get.
<fab> I just got my mystery stamp
<JANET> ISN'T IT MARVELOUS??
<fab> It is gonna be fun
<JANET> HAVE I GIVEN YOU ALL ENOUGH SOLID TO EVEN ASK IF YOU HAVE QUESTIONS?
<fab> I also ordered sofme of the Moonglow she was clearancing
<JANET> I LOVE THOSE
<JANET> I GUESS IN THE NEXT TWO WEEKS LOOK AT THINGS YOU LIKE, CARDS, ADVERTISINGS, COMPOSITIONS. SEE IF YOU CAN SEE THE RELATIONSHIPS IN THEM.
<JANET> SEE IF YOU CAN MAKE "RULES" FOR WHAT YOU LIKE
<Stampverb> example, please, of relationships?
<JANET> (THEN WE'LL SEE IF WE CAN BREAK 'EM<G>)
<JANET> OKAY...
<cak> (save 'em in a folder or notebook--you'll be so happy you did)
<JANET> THE MONA LISA...
<JANET> MOSTLY DESATURATED COLORS
<JANET> (THIS IS FROM MEMORY, IT WOULD HELP TO LOOK AT IT<G>)
<JANET> CONTRAST BETWEEN HER AND THAT LANDSCAPE BACKGROUND
<JANET> THE RELATIVE VALUE/HUE ETC. BETWEEN HER AND THE BACKGROUND
<JANET> THERE'S PROBABLY MORE TO SEE ONCE YOU REALLY LOOK AT IT
<JANET> WHAT'S GOING ON IN HER EYES?
<JANET> IN HER LIPS?
<JANET> IN HER FINGERS?
<JANET> WHY DOES THIS WORK SO WELL?
<cak> even the relative value between her skin and the rest of the picture
<JANET> YES!
<fab> I have to run. Still got the Grandson here
<fab> nite all and thanks
<JANET> HAVE FUN, AR!
<MomCat> bye, fab
<JANET> I ACTUALLY MADE A COUPLE THINGS FOR STAMP NIGHT LAST WEEK TO USE AS ILLUSTRATIONS IN HERE.
<JANET> IN TWO WEEKS i'LL SHOW 'EM<G>
<Stampverb> i have to go as well
<MomCat> lol
<JANET> WE ALL PROBABLY DO. I'M STARVING NOW. :)
<MomCat> bye, verbie
<cak> cool, and now you have to be patient and not show them for a couple of weeks
<cak> Night SV
<JANET> and i'm a gonna lose the caps
<JANET> maybe i'll perfect 'em
<MomCat> I think you already did
<MomCat> lose the caps, that is
<JANET> heh and we know what that means, I'll perfect and perfect until i'll never show 'em
<JANET> lol i did
<JANET> i also already showed the two things i made, last week at stampnight
Log file closed at: 6/21/05 10:16:19 PM